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Lp and Sobolev classes do not determine point values
Statement
Assume Countable Choice. Let , let be a nonempty open set, and fix . For every , , and , the zero function and the point spike represent the same element of and , although and . Consequently evaluation at is not a well-defined operation on either equivalence class.
Facts & Assumptions
Given: Countable Choice, a nonempty open , , , , , and .
Every at most countable subset of is Lebesgue measurable and null under Countable Choice. In particular, is measurable and null. (Every at most countable subset of is Lebesgue null; in particular )
An indicator of a measurable set is measurable. (An indicator function is measurable exactly when its set is measurable)
An element is an almost-everywhere equivalence class of measurable representatives. (The space as the quotient by null functions)
A class has an representative whose weak derivatives lie in for every ; representatives and weak derivative classes are well-defined under Countable Choice. (Integer-order Sobolev spaces and their norms)
The zero multi-index derivative is the function class itself: . (Integer-order Sobolev spaces and their norms)
Weak differentiation is unchanged when both the input and derivative representatives are changed on null sets, for all under Countable Choice. (Weak differentiation ignores null-set changes)
A nonnegative measurable function has integral zero over a measurable null set. (A nonnegative integral over a null set vanishes)
Countable Choice, or , says that every sequence of nonempty sets has a choice function selecting one element from each set. (The Axiom of Countable Choice ())
Counterexample
Put . By [F1], is measurable and , so [F2] makes measurable. Both functions are locally integrable; for every compact , by [F6]. They agree at every , hence almost everywhere. For , again by [F6]; for , every positive superlevel set is empty or , so its measure is zero and . Thus in every by [F3], including both endpoints.
For every multi-index , zero has weak derivative zero because both sides of its test identity vanish. The functions are locally integrable and almost everywhere, so [F5] transfers the identity to : zero is a weak derivative of both representatives at every order. At the derivative class is their common zero class by [F7]; for it is the zero class. By [F4], both belong to with identical derivative classes through order , so every term in the Sobolev norm is zero. This includes , , and .
The representatives have different point values, and , although [F3] and [F4] identify them as the same and elements. A value at therefore cannot be assigned from either class alone. After fixing , the construction makes no choices; the stated Countable Choice hypothesis is exactly by [F8] and is carried only through the null-set, representative-independence, and Sobolev-class interfaces. No full Axiom of Choice is used.
Depends on
- Integer-order Sobolev spaces and their norms
- Weak differentiation ignores null-set changes
- Every at most countable subset of $\mathbb{R}^n$ is Lebesgue null; in particular $\lambda_1(\mathbb{Q})=0$
- The Axiom of Countable Choice ($\mathrm{AC}_\omega$)
- The space $L^p(\mu)$ as the quotient by null functions
- An indicator function is measurable exactly when its set is measurable
- A nonnegative integral over a null set vanishes
Used by
Nothing in the library uses this result yet.
Dependency tree · two levels
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Sources
- John K. Hunter, Notes on Partial Differential Equations (2014), Chapter 3 §3.5 (standard reference, not scraped)
- Juha Kinnunen, Sobolev Spaces (2026), Chapter 1 §1.2 (standard reference, not scraped)